Discussion:
[linux-lvm] raid10 to raid what? - convert
lejeczek
2017-10-16 09:02:35 UTC
Permalink
hi everyone

I'm sroogling and reading but before spend whole day doing
that, I was hoping you guys, gals, done conversion from raid10?

I'm thinking best(natural?) would be to convert to two raid0
LVs, right. Am I right? Would it be optimal, and how do you
do it?

many thanks, L.
John Stoffel
2017-10-16 21:16:14 UTC
Permalink
lejeczek> I'm sroogling and reading but before spend whole day doing
lejeczek> that, I was hoping you guys, gals, done conversion from
lejeczek> raid10?

Please post your configuration and explain what you're trying to do in
more detail.

lejeczek> I'm thinking best(natural?) would be to convert to two raid0
lejeczek> LVs, right. Am I right? Would it be optimal, and how do you
lejeczek> do it?

You don't put LVs directly ontop of RAID0, you put them in VGs, which
reside in PVs, which reside on disks or RAIDs, or iSCSI LUNs, etc.

It sounds like you have two filesystems, each in their own LV. You
want to move them off a RAID10 (four disks, in two mirrored PAIRS,
stripped across them is what I assume), because why?

Give more details. You do realize that while you will gain space, you
will lose reliability with RAID0, if one disk fails, all your data is
gone.

John
lejeczek
2017-10-17 09:03:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Stoffel
lejeczek> I'm sroogling and reading but before spend whole day doing
lejeczek> that, I was hoping you guys, gals, done conversion from
lejeczek> raid10?
Please post your configuration and explain what you're trying to do in
more detail.
lejeczek> I'm thinking best(natural?) would be to convert to two raid0
lejeczek> LVs, right. Am I right? Would it be optimal, and how do you
lejeczek> do it?
You don't put LVs directly ontop of RAID0, you put them in VGs, which
reside in PVs, which reside on disks or RAIDs, or iSCSI LUNs, etc.
It sounds like you have two filesystems, each in their own LV. You
want to move them off a RAID10 (four disks, in two mirrored PAIRS,
stripped across them is what I assume), because why?
Give more details. You do realize that while you will gain space, you
will lose reliability with RAID0, if one disk fails, all your data is
gone.
John
no other raids but LVM's own.
not much in configuration, unless I misunderstand, question
I'm posing is simple - is it possible to convert/split lvm
raid10 LV into two raid0 LVs? (here one thing comes to mind:
data stays intact?) Or raid10 LV to any other raid?

As I sroogled I saw there is "mirror spitting" but term
raid10 does not appear in that context, or I failed to find it.

But man pages also mention, with regards to raid takeover:
"..
       ·  between striped/raid0 and raid10.
..."
So it sounds like possible(so no other raid levels but these
two), only might be intricate process/procedure, which is
not documented, or again, I failed to find it.
Post by John Stoffel
_______________________________________________
linux-lvm mailing list
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-lvm
read the LVM HOW-TO at http://tldp.org/HOWTO/LVM-HOWTO/
Stuart D. Gathman
2017-10-17 20:57:10 UTC
Permalink
You still haven't said what you are trying to accomplish. I wouldn't
have bothered responding to such a vague question until you provided
some tantalizing clues. Until your lastest clues, I would have advised
using rsync or dd to copy your data to a new volume. But now it sounds
like you ran out of budget for another disk, or need to minimize down
time, and want to reconfigure in place.

First off, raid10 is a linux specialty (I didn't know LVM supported it,
thanks!), and is not the same as raid1+0 (raid1 on top of raid0).
However, your previous clue tells us that probably you have at least 4
disks in your raid10. So you should be able to remove 2 legs from the
raid10, and still have the equivalent of a raid0. But this is not
certain as raid10 works perfectly well with 2 or 3 disks, including the
redundancy. In any case, you can remove at least 1 leg from your
raid10. Be sure to backup first in any case.

Now that you've cut the disk used in half (and your data is precariously
dependent on the health of *both* underlying physical disks), what did
you want to do next? Maybe you just want to create a different kind of
raid with the released space and do that rsync or dd?
Post by lejeczek
no other raids but LVM's own.
not much in configuration, unless I misunderstand, question I'm posing is
simple - is it possible to convert/split lvm raid10 LV into two raid0 LVs?
(here one thing comes to mind: data stays intact?) Or raid10 LV to any other
raid?
As I sroogled I saw there is "mirror spitting" but term raid10 does not
appear in that context, or I failed to find it.
"..
       ·  between striped/raid0 and raid10.
..."
So it sounds like possible(so no other raid levels but these two), only might
be intricate process/procedure, which is not documented, or again, I failed
to find it.
--
Stuart D. Gathman <***@gathman.org>
"Confutatis maledictis, flamis acribus addictis" - background song for
a Microsoft sponsored "Where do you want to go from here?" commercial.
Stuart D. Gathman
2017-10-17 21:21:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stuart D. Gathman
thanks!), and is not the same as raid1+0 (raid1 on top of raid0).
Sorry, that is raid0 on top of raid1. With raid1 on top, then after
the first disk failure, the second failure has a 66% chance of
destroying the data. With raid0 on top, the second failure has only
a 33% chance of destroying the data.

Raid10 is a way of striping the data with redundancy in a single layer.
--
Stuart D. Gathman <***@gathman.org>
"Confutatis maledictis, flamis acribus addictis" - background song for
a Microsoft sponsored "Where do you want to go from here?" commercial.
Tanstaafl
2017-10-18 05:36:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stuart D. Gathman
First off, raid10 is a linux specialty (I didn't know LVM supported it,
thanks!),
Eh? Not sure what you mean by that, RAID10 is used by many hardware RAID
controllers, so is certainly not some kind of esoteric linux
'specialty', unless I misunderstood.

I've been using RAID10 exclusively for over 10 years ever since I
narrowly avoided a major catastrophe with RAID5.
Post by Stuart D. Gathman
and is not the same as raid1+0 (raid1 on top of raid0).
Not according to everything I've ever read about it... for example:

http://www.thegeekstuff.com/2011/10/raid10-vs-raid01
Post by Stuart D. Gathman
But this is not certain as raid10 works perfectly well with 2 or 3
disks, including the redundancy.
You must be talking about something else... RAID10 requires at least 4
disks, and always an even number, although most RAID controllers support
the designation of at least one hot spare (so it will auto-rebuild using
the hot spare in the event of a failure). Been using this configuration
in my 5 drive QNAP NAS's for along time.
Stuart D. Gathman
2017-10-18 13:33:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tanstaafl
Post by Stuart D. Gathman
and is not the same as raid1+0 (raid1 on top of raid0).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-standard_RAID_levels#Linux_MD_RAID_10
Post by Tanstaafl
Post by Stuart D. Gathman
But this is not certain as raid10 works perfectly well with 2 or 3
disks, including the redundancy.
You must be talking about something else... RAID10 requires at least 4
disks, and always an even number, although most RAID controllers support
the designation of at least one hot spare (so it will auto-rebuild using
the hot spare in the event of a failure). Been using this configuration
in my 5 drive QNAP NAS's for along time.
Yep. Not talking about raid1+0

Linux raid10 really ought to be a "standard" - and effectively is.
I use it whenever I can (with only 2 disks I use raid1 so I can alias
the legs as non-raid).
--
Stuart D. Gathman <***@gathman.org>
"Confutatis maledictis, flamis acribus addictis" - background song for
a Microsoft sponsored "Where do you want to go from here?" commercial.
lejeczek
2017-10-18 15:52:01 UTC
Permalink
You still haven't said what you are trying to accomplish. 
I wouldn't
have bothered responding to such a vague question until
you provided
some tantalizing clues.  Until your lastest clues, I would
have advised
using rsync or dd to copy your data to a new volume.  But
now it sounds
like you ran out of budget for another disk, or need to
minimize down
time, and want to reconfigure in place.
gee, with this much enthusiasm I can imagine you solve many
problems, however I can also imagine at the same time you
create also problems that do not exists.
but honestly & truthfully appreciate this enthusiasm & help.
First off, raid10 is a linux specialty (I didn't know LVM
supported it,
thanks!), and is not the same as raid1+0 (raid1 on top of
raid0).
However, your previous clue tells us that probably you
have at least 4
disks in your raid10.  So you should be able to remove 2
legs from the
raid10, and still have the equivalent of a raid0.  But
this is not
certain as raid10 works perfectly well with 2 or 3 disks,
including the
redundancy.  In any case, you can remove at least 1 leg
from your
raid10.  Be sure to backup first in any case.
Now that you've cut the disk used in half (and your data
is precariously
dependent on the health of *both* underlying physical
disks), what did
you want to do next?  Maybe you just want to create a
different kind of
raid with the released space and do that rsync or dd?
I'm still looking for an answer - if it's possible then how
to split raid10 into two raid0 LVs(with perhaps having data
intact?)
I've been fiddling with --splitmirrors but either I got it
wrong or I didn't and command just fails.
More than contemplating theories and general knowledge on
raid I'd prise a lot succinct, concrete info, actuall
experience of "howto".

But I shall now try my fiddling virtualized way, problem at
hand I had, I had to solve different way completely.
Post by lejeczek
no other raids but LVM's own.
not much in configuration, unless I misunderstand,
question I'm posing is simple - is it possible to
convert/split lvm raid10 LV into two raid0 LVs? (here one
thing comes to mind: data stays intact?) Or raid10 LV to
any other raid?
As I sroogled I saw there is "mirror spitting" but term
raid10 does not appear in that context, or I failed to
find it.
"..
       ·  between striped/raid0 and raid10.
..."
So it sounds like possible(so no other raid levels but
these two), only might be intricate process/procedure,
which is not documented, or again, I failed to find it.
_______________________________________________
linux-lvm mailing list
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-lvm
read the LVM HOW-TO at http://tldp.org/HOWTO/LVM-HOWTO/
John Stoffel
2017-10-18 20:46:21 UTC
Permalink
You still haven't said what you are trying to accomplish. 
I wouldn't
have bothered responding to such a vague question until
you provided
some tantalizing clues.  Until your lastest clues, I would
have advised
using rsync or dd to copy your data to a new volume.  But
now it sounds
like you ran out of budget for another disk, or need to
minimize down
time, and want to reconfigure in place.
lejeczek> gee, with this much enthusiasm I can imagine you solve many
lejeczek> problems, however I can also imagine at the same time you
lejeczek> create also problems that do not exists. but honestly &
lejeczek> truthfully appreciate this enthusiasm & help.

Since you provided zero data on your configuration... what else do you expect?
First off, raid10 is a linux specialty (I didn't know LVM
supported it,
thanks!), and is not the same as raid1+0 (raid1 on top of
raid0).
However, your previous clue tells us that probably you
have at least 4
disks in your raid10.  So you should be able to remove 2
legs from the
raid10, and still have the equivalent of a raid0.  But
this is not
certain as raid10 works perfectly well with 2 or 3 disks,
including the
redundancy.  In any case, you can remove at least 1 leg
from your
raid10.  Be sure to backup first in any case.
Now that you've cut the disk used in half (and your data
is precariously
dependent on the health of *both* underlying physical
disks), what did
you want to do next?  Maybe you just want to create a
different kind of
raid with the released space and do that rsync or dd?
lejeczek> I'm still looking for an answer - if it's possible then how
lejeczek> to split raid10 into two raid0 LVs(with perhaps having data
lejeczek> intact?) I've been fiddling with --splitmirrors but either
lejeczek> I got it wrong or I didn't and command just fails. More
lejeczek> than contemplating theories and general knowledge on raid
lejeczek> I'd prise a lot succinct, concrete info, actuall experience
lejeczek> of "howto".

Have you tried setting up some /dev/loop# devices and re-creating your
setup on smaller devices and trying out various options?

It sounds like you want to take an existing RAID10, remove half the
disks (removing all redundancy) and then rebuilding into a new setup
so you can move the data over?

Even some simple examples of what you have and what you're trying to
accomplish without showing your array names, etc would be a big help.

lejeczek> But I shall now try my fiddling virtualized way, problem at
lejeczek> hand I had, I had to solve different way completely.

I can't make heads or tails of this. Sorry.
lejeczek
2017-10-19 10:54:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Stoffel
Post by Stuart D. Gathman
You still haven't said what you are trying to accomplish.
I wouldn't
have bothered responding to such a vague question until
you provided
some tantalizing clues.  Until your lastest clues, I would
have advised
using rsync or dd to copy your data to a new volume.  But
now it sounds
like you ran out of budget for another disk, or need to
minimize down
time, and want to reconfigure in place.
lejeczek> gee, with this much enthusiasm I can imagine you solve many
lejeczek> problems, however I can also imagine at the same time you
lejeczek> create also problems that do not exists. but honestly &
lejeczek> truthfully appreciate this enthusiasm & help.
Since you provided zero data on your configuration... what else do you expect?
gee, I don't know... maybe... to look at the problem:
split/conversion of lvm raid10 instead of ... you know
Post by John Stoffel
Post by Stuart D. Gathman
First off, raid10 is a linux specialty (I didn't know LVM
supported it,
thanks!), and is not the same as raid1+0 (raid1 on top of
raid0).
However, your previous clue tells us that probably you
have at least 4
disks in your raid10.  So you should be able to remove 2
legs from the
raid10, and still have the equivalent of a raid0.  But
this is not
certain as raid10 works perfectly well with 2 or 3 disks,
including the
redundancy.  In any case, you can remove at least 1 leg
from your
raid10.  Be sure to backup first in any case.
Now that you've cut the disk used in half (and your data
is precariously
dependent on the health of *both* underlying physical
disks), what did
you want to do next?  Maybe you just want to create a
different kind of
raid with the released space and do that rsync or dd?
lejeczek> I'm still looking for an answer - if it's possible then how
lejeczek> to split raid10 into two raid0 LVs(with perhaps having data
lejeczek> intact?) I've been fiddling with --splitmirrors but either
lejeczek> I got it wrong or I didn't and command just fails. More
lejeczek> than contemplating theories and general knowledge on raid
lejeczek> I'd prise a lot succinct, concrete info, actuall experience
lejeczek> of "howto".
Have you tried setting up some /dev/loop# devices and re-creating your
setup on smaller devices and trying out various options?
It sounds like you want to take an existing RAID10, remove half the
disks (removing all redundancy) and then rebuilding into a new setup
so you can move the data over?
Even some simple examples of what you have and what you're trying to
accomplish without showing your array names, etc would be a big help.
lejeczek> But I shall now try my fiddling virtualized way, problem at
lejeczek> hand I had, I had to solve different way completely.
I can't make heads or tails of this. Sorry.
in a virtual environment I'll try to reproduce the problem
and carry on there.
If a can find any solution, or just anything helpfully
informative I'll mail the list.
Post by John Stoffel
_______________________________________________
linux-lvm mailing list
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/linux-lvm
read the LVM HOW-TO at http://tldp.org/HOWTO/LVM-HOWTO/
Xen
2017-10-18 22:04:22 UTC
Permalink
I'm still looking for an answer - if it's possible then how to split
raid10 into two raid0 LVs(with perhaps having data intact?)
I've been fiddling with --splitmirrors but either I got it wrong or I
didn't and command just fails.
More than contemplating theories and general knowledge on raid I'd
prise a lot succinct, concrete info, actuall experience of "howto".
Sorry that I can't help you here, but I believe it is possible with
mdraid.

However note that if you can spend the time you could take two disks,
wipe them, put raid 0 on it, and then copy the still functioning RAID 10
over. I know that's not what you're asking but personally I have no
hands-on experience with LVM raid and metadata.

I assume that even if you were to manage to get a raid 0 going with pure
DM commands you'd still need to change LVM's metadata and no clue how to
do that myself.

Conceivably, copying your data over is not ideal but it should not take
longer than a day?

Don't forget that RAID 10 is 2 stripes of mirrors...

But LVM typically prevents you to operate on a volume group if not all
PVs are present...

Anyway if it can't be done by lvconvert, it probably can't be done
(without whatever complex thing).
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